Rebels, Canon, & Confusion

If you haven’t seen last Saturday’s “Rebels,” this contains spoilers:

Obi-Wan and Maul duke it out one last time in the episode “Twin Suns” and as Maul is dying after the shortest lightsaber duel ever, he asks Obi-Wan about the person he’s obviously protecting, “Is it the Chosen One?”  (I’m paraphrasing.) Obi-Wan answers in the affirmative and Maul says, “He will avenge us all” before expiring.

This little bit of dialogue had me pulling my hair out.  I still wouldn’t put it past anyone to burrow some tunnels into that “immovable mountain of canon” and if the story group tells the script writers they have to do something, then they have to do it.  I started to wonder if this was being done to undermine Lucas’s mythology in Eps I-VI to change it to something else in the sequels.

After complaining about it on Twitter, I got a bunch of reassurances this wasn’t happening at all and it reflects Obi-Wan losing faith in Anakin and pinning his hopes on Luke instead.  Pablo Hidalgo had commented (independently) that this was more or less Obi-Wan’s opinion.

Because it’s hard to try to explain my POV with 140 miserable characters, I will try to explain it here.  It is obvious from the OT that ol’ Ben Kenobi had given up on Vader/Anakin, which is why he and Yoda were setting up Luke to carry out their patricide mission for them.  The thing is, if I were Obi-Wan, I’d do one of two things about the prophecy:  abandon it completely as myth or still believe it’s true though I wouldn’t have any idea how it’s supposed to come to pass.  The other thing is and people easily overlook this, Obi-Wan was still in touch with Qui-Gon.  This would probably nudge Obi-Wan in the latter possibility.  What this is here is a third possibility and that is Obi-Wan coming to the conclusion on his own that maybe Luke is supposed to fulfill that prophecy.

Whether you think it’s a reasonable conclusion for Obi-Wan to come to or not is one thing.  The problem is how fans and people who casually watch Star Wars perceive stuff like this if you’re not frequently reminding them of the underlying mythology.  Not everybody who watches “Rebels” has ever watched “Clone Wars.”  Not every Star Wars fan has been following this for 40 years in every media and has considered every character’s motivations and thoughts (or even remembers everything).  Lots of people are going to take this to mean that they are changing canon and are fully expecting to discover in TLJ that Luke’s the real chosen one.   Even before I watched the episode, people who had seen it on the Disney X D app were talking about how this was a “game changer.”  They’re accepting what was said on its face; ergo the gobs of comments I’ve seen saying this is a canon change.  They’re not going to waste another 20 minutes of their time watching extraneous online interviews or bother reading a story grouper’s tweets.  If Lucasfilm’s intention is to not change anything then they need to make that clearer in its media.

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38 Responses to “Rebels, Canon, & Confusion”

  1. Moose Says:

    I agree with you. It is not like “Let’s Make A Deal” where you choose between Door #1 (Anakin), Door #2 (Luke) or Door #3 (Rey!?).

  2. LadyJediScientist (@LJediScientist) Says:

    I agree that if their intent was simply to highlight Obi-Wan’s perspective, then Dave needs to clarify this within Rebels.

    Personally, I didn’t see this episode as a game changer nor did I get overly emotionally about it. I thought the episode did an excellent job in highlighting how Obi-Wan had changed over the years and how much Maul hadn’t.

    On the subject of the Chosen One, Obi-Wan does think that Luke is the best hope for the galaxy. This is very apparent in the films: “That boy is our last hope.” It is also apparent that Yoda does not share Obi-Wan’s opinion. If Luke fails, then Leia will take up the quest. Obi-Wan has transferred his faith in Anakin to Luke. Yoda, on the other hand, has faith in the Force and not just in a single individual. But even Yoda is still unwilling to consider that Anakin is still capable of changing and fulfilling the prophecy.

    On the topic of Luke, I’ve run across a couple of comments on Twitter about how this changes their perceptions of Luke or make Luke’s journey more meaningful. How? The title of Episode 4 is A New Hope. Luke IS the NEW HOPE. His quest is become a Jedi and defeat the Sith. His path and character development were always meaningful. Apparently, some of the fans were so preoccupied with how cool Han was understand Luke’s story character. “SIGH”

    On a final note, I find it interesting that there are memorials for Maul popping up all over the place.
    Did no one do this for Han or did I miss it?

  3. Darth Deckard Jones Says:

    There are plenty of fans who think Padmè died of a broken heart and still don’t understand why a younger Anakin appers as a Force Ghost at the end of Jedi. These have never been explained in any detail and I don’t think George wants them to be. Pablo made some vague comments about Padmè’s death when the Internet caught up with the idea that something else might be going on, but didn’t come right out and explain it. He has done 10 times more to clear up this last episode of Rebels than deal with the end of ROTS. Your point about Qui-Gon is a good one but the OT makes it pretty clear that Yoda and Obi-Wan want Luke to kill Vader. So it doesn’t really matter as you have to already accept one of the following: Qui-Gon must also not be on the save Vader train, or he can’t convince Yoda and Obi that he is still the Chosen One, or that he simply will not discuss it with them as it would alter the events that need to happen to make Vader turn back to the light. There are probably some additional ways of looking at it but I think you get my point. You probably discovered a little plot hole but I am sure George would fill it. My main point is that I am glad Star Wars like all great art doesn’t make things obvious and allows its audience to interpret it. So the Story Group didn’t do anything wrong in this instance in my opinion. They shouldn’t have to explain everything to everyone. I mean there are still fans who think Empire has a huge plot hole since Vader is looking for Luke in the beginning of the movie but doesn’t seem to know who he is when talking to the Emperor at the mid point of the film.

  4. Mike Jones Says:

    I understand your concerns, issues and/or worries regarding the ending of that Rebels episode with Obi-Wan and Maul, Lazy Padawan. However, I don’t believe this was just done without thought, especially given Filoni was heavily involved with this episode. Dave Filoni did write and direct “Twin Suns”, so I trust him that he had a reason for putting that line in there, especially since he told the Forcecast back at WonderCon in 2014 that the Chosen One prophecy is more complex than we believe regarding the Skywalker family and what Kenobi believes, being that he and George both wanted to expand on the Chosen One stuff in Clone Wars before it’s premature ending. He talks about it here from 51:19 to 55:26 in Forcecast Epsiode #300: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/forcecast-podcast-star-wars-news-talk-interviews-and-more/id422924399?mt=2&i=306575841. So, again, I understand what your saying, but, if Filoni wanted to put that out there since 2014 when Clone Wars ended with the Yoda arc, I trust this a Filoni decision and not a “Disney screwing up Star Wars canon” machination.

    • Mike Jones Says:

      Also, Lazy Padawan, if I may kindly offer you some friendly advice, I believe if you watch the Clone Wars Mortis and Yoda arcs along with Star Wars Episodes 3-6, it’ll make watching “Twin Suns” feel a lot better for you in context regarding the whole potential controversy (if I may use that word lightly and appropriately) regarding that line with the Chosen One .

  5. Jacobesico Says:

    It’s our good old friend, A certain point of view at work again.

    I loved the episode. I thought Dave Filoni pulled out all the stops and it was brilliant.

    Did anyone see the way Maul died in Obi-Wan’s arms was the mirror image of the way Qui-Gon died. It’s little things like that that I find great about Rebels.

  6. joe Says:

    speaking of obi-wan ewan mcgregor has said that he would do the obi-wan movie if they ever make it now if only disney would just greenlight it

    • lazypadawan Says:

      Unfortunately Gary Whitta recently dropped some hints that Disney wants to do its own OC fan fiction with spinoffs in the future.

      • joe Says:

        disney needs to get their stick out of their a** they will lose a lot of fans if they keep up with this attitude this coming from someone who has loved disney since childhood

      • Steven Farmer Says:

        Wait, Lazy, where was this?

      • lazypadawan Says:

        It’s on various reports online. Check with Star Wars Underground.

      • Mike Jones Says:

        If I may spin this in a hopeful positive note, Lazy Padawan, I wouldn’t doubt an Obi-Wan movie happening yet. I only say that because when Entertainment Weekly’s Anthony Breznican spoke with Jimmy Mac and Jason Swank on RebelForce Radio 3 weeks before “Rogue One” came out, he said the Obi-Wan movie is being put on hold and not yet moving forward only because they are rumored to still have plans with Obi-Wan in the Saga Films, which is adding more fuel to the fire that Obi-Wan is Rey’s grandpa, and that will be revealed in The Last Jedi and maybe they’re waiting to see how people react to that once Episode VIII comes out, if it’s true. Breznican even wrote a piece about when The Force Awakens was being promoted at Comic-Con 2015 here: https://www.google.com/amp/ew.com/article/2015/07/08/star-wars-force-awakens-obi-wan-theory/amp/. He says that here 59 minutes to 61 minutes into the RFR episode from November 24th: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/rebel-force-radio-star-wars/id593355728?mt=2&i=378278824

  7. Moose Says:

    This reminds me of how they did not even mention the Geonosians in Rogue One and then explained it away in some other Disney generated media.

    • Mike Jones Says:

      Well, Pablo Hidalgo did say in the Rebels Recon for the Rebels episode with Saw on Geonosis that they knew Geonosis wouldn’t be in the Rogue One storyline, even though it was vaguely addressed by Krennic in the opening pro logo of Rogue One, so that’s why they decided to address that in Rebels. I mean I don’t think they’re lying, and they wouldn’t do this to us to be clueless. He even says that in this video: https://youtu.be/NM7pTSxJKyY

      • SWPN Says:

        It was not addressed at all. They could have dropped the word “Geonosians” in the dialogue and they didn’t. It was a conscious choice on their part.

      • Mike Jones Says:

        Well SWPN, with all due respect, you can believe what u want to believe, but, I believe Pablo Hidalgo when he says that when Krennic in “Rogue One” says to Galen Erso ‘the work I stalled and I need you to come back’, he’s saying ‘the bugs on Geonosis were doing a terrible job and were wiped out and I need you, Galen, a man of your skills to help come back and work with me on the Death Star’.

  8. Keith Palmer Says:

    I’m unfortunately reminded of hearing about an “in-universe guide to the Force” published near the end of the previous Expanded Universe that sort of sighed “with all the trouble we’ve had since the death of the Emperor, it seems unlikely Anakin Skywalker could have been the Chosen One” (and never mind that trouble started being developed years before the idea was set up…) At the same time, if this was just a matter of “it wasn’t mentioned when I was young, so it must be bad,” I could imagine simply not mentioning the words “Chosen One” ever again… The problem, I suppose, is the whole deal of “if Anakin is established to be a ‘child of destiny’ in ‘Episode I’ and casts down the Emperor in ‘Episode VI,’ then things start to feel ‘complete’ from ‘a certain point of view'”… which does only leave me wondering what George Lucas’s ideas for continuing the story are, and aware of how they can still be anything we imagine to be the best alternative.

  9. SWPN Says:

    There are three things we know about the prophecy of the Chosen One from the movies:

    – Conceived by midi-chlorians
    – Needs to destroy the Sith
    – Restores balance to the Force (per the latter)

    Obi-Wan knows this. He also knows that Luke was not conceived by midi-chlorians. It simply makes no sense for him to call Luke the Chosen One. He believes Luke to be his only hope to save the galaxy, but the Chosen One is more than that.

    • lazypadawan Says:

      Great point!

      • Mike Jones Says:

        Perhaps there are many mysteries to the Force and the Chosen One prophecy that Obi-Wan doesn’t know and even in RotJ, Obi-Wan believes all of what you pointed out, SWNN, is no longer true. Plus, in the Clone Wars Season 6 Yoda arc, there was the line where the Force Priestess Serenity tells Yoda that “Your destiny will be to choose one who brings balance to the Force”, which is why Yoda in Revenge of the Sith says “misread the prophecy [of the Chosen One] may have been”. That’s why he decides to put his faith in Luke as the Chosen One, but, what Obi-Wan and the other Jedi like Yoda don’t understand is that if you put faith in one person, you’ll be disappointed that he failed, which is something Dave Filoni brought up to the Forcecast at WonderCon 2014 when he was asked if Luke was actually the Chosen One, to which Filoni says “I’m not gonna say for sure, it’s all up to your interpretation”.

      • lazypadawan Says:

        It seems to me fans have spent the past week trying to justify undermining Anakin’s place in the saga.

      • Mike Jones Says:

        LP, I’m not trying to justify undermining Anakin’s place in the Saga nor am I trying to undermine it either. I’m just trying to defend what Obi-Wan said in last week’s Rebels and explain with long-term explanations why this isn’t so controversial an d isn’t Disney changing up canon and why there were hints of his happening before going back to Revenge of the Sith and Clone Wars Seasons 3 and 6. If Filoni got the OK to do his from George Lucas, I trust him, especially since he wrote and directed last week’s Rebels.

      • SWPN Says:

        @Mike Jones If Obi-Wan doesn’t believe in the prophecy anymore, it makes no sense for him to call anyone the ‘chosen one’.

        Regarding what the Force Priestess said in TCW, it was not what you quoted. What she said was:

        “He is to teach one that will save the universe from a great imbalance.”

        She is talking about Anakin. Yoda will teach Anakin how to become one with the Force. That’s why Yoda is to learn how to manifest himself after death. Not to teach Luke. He’s alive when he does that. But to teach Anakin how to do it too. That’s why Anakin’s spirit appears at the end of Return of the Jedi. Because Yoda taught him after he died.

        Anakin is the Chosen One. It’s the Chosen One who destroys the Sith and saves the galaxy from a great imbalance.

      • Mike Jones Says:

        LWell then, SWPN, with all due respect, that’s ur opinion and interpretation, so, like I said, you can believe what you’d prefer to believe. However, a new thought just occurred to me that maybe when Obi-Wan tells Maul when he asks “Is it, [the reason you are here because of], the Chosen One” with Obi-Wan saying “he is” that leads Maul to say he will “avenge us”, maybe what that really means is Maul asking “was The Chosen One becoming corrupted into villainy the reason why you are on Tatooine”. And, Obi-Wan says “he is”. And, Maul when he says “he will avenge us”, means Anakin/Vader will avenge Maul and Obi-Wan, before he dies. That’s what I really think he is saying.

      • SWPN Says:

        @Mike Jones It’s not my opinion, it’s a fact. That’s why I posted the exact quote.

      • Mike Jones Says:

        SWPN: The quote was ‘you will train one who will save the universe from a great imbalance’. She never says ‘the one’, she says ‘one’. So, she’s telling Yoda to train the one he believes will bring balance to the universe (which also is the Force). Even Filoni said, in the interview he did with Forecast’s David Bolger at Wondercon 2014, that its so easy to get hung up on the word “one”, when it really should’ve been more than just one. He talks about that when he answered Juatin Bolger’s question 51:19 to 55:33 minutes and seconds into Forcecast episode #300: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/forcecast-podcast-star-wars-news-talk-interviews-and-more/id422924399?mt=2&i=306575841. I would kindly and wisely suggest that you take a few minutes to listen to this interview between Filoni and Justin and think about what they talk about in that interview before coming back to me with ur next defense.

      • SWPN Says:

        @Mike Jones

        No, watch the scene in context.

        “Why is he here? Why are you here?” – Confusion

        “Told I was to learn from you. That show me you could how to manifest my life after death.” – Yoda

        “That’s impossible. He will fail the great gift. He will disappoint his. He will disappoint himself.” – Sadness

        “Oh, no. No, I do not see that.” – Joy

        “His destiny is already set. It’s not for us to decide.” – Serenity

        “But why him?” – Sadness

        “He is to teach one that will save the universe from a great imbalance.” – Serenity

        They are discussing why should he learn how to manifest himself after death and they say it’s because he will teach one that will save the universe from a great imbalance. If they were talking about Luke (which they aren’t) it wouldn’t make sense because Yoda doesn’t need to learn that in order to train him. Instead, they are saying that he will teach (not train) how to manifest oneself after death to one that will save the universe from a great imbalance: Anakin. That’s why Anakin could manifest himself at the end of Return of the Jedi. Because Yoda taught him how, after Anakin died. It has nothing to do with Luke. Luke didn’t save the universe from a great imbalance. He “saved” Anakin and in turn Anakin fulfilled the prophecy and restored balance to the Force, thus saving the universe from a great imbalance. This is not an opinion or something up to debate. It’s a fact established in the movies and The Clone Wars.

    • Bayonne VeterinaryMedical Says:

      Then, SWPN, why do they show Yoda at the end of the Clone Wars Yoda arc that he says to Luke “there is another Skywalker”?

  10. Moose Says:

    If Qui-Gon says Anakin is the Chosen One then that is good enough for me. It seems to me that Lucas bookended Qui-Gon and Luke as the two wisest Jedi in part because they were only ones who truly believed in, and had compassion for, Anakin.

  11. joe Says:

    to go a bit off topic (well still about the episode at least) props to stephen stanton for nailing alec guinness in his portrayal of ben kenobi and the ending we hear aunt beru’s voice i think that’s the original audio from a new hope

  12. Bayonne VeterinaryMedical Says:

    Hey, Lazy Padawan, here’s an interview Filoni did with IGN’s Eric Goldman where he clarifies that Chosen One quote: http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/03/28/star-wars-rebels-dave-filoni-discusses-kallus-arc-mauls-fate-and-more-of-season-3s-big-storylines?page=3. But, if you’d rather have what Filoni said without looking into the interview, here’s what he said:

    “I’ll give you this… I heard from the crew that it was being debated about when Obi-Wan says that “He is the Chosen One.” I think you have to understand that in that moment — after the terrible loss of Anakin in Obi-Wan’s eyes — that Anakin is not the Chosen One to Obi-Wan Kenobi and that Obi-Wan is hoping that “that boy is our last hope,” and that Luke Skywalker is the Chosen One. I always wonder about the Chosen One and the mythology of the Chosen One because it’s clear George will tell you that Anakin is, in the end, the Chosen One. And the Jedi say at one point maybe this is a prophecy that’s been misread. Yoda says that in Revenge of the Sith. I think in a way it’s that nobody understood what it was going to take for the Chosen One to achieve his goal – this selfless path. It’s not that he was going to come as a warrior and destroy the Sith. Obi-Wan says “You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them.” But we’re not thinking in the right way. It’s really the selfless act of his son — to go before the Emperor, to throw away his weapon — that inspires the selfless act in his father. That’s the core of this whole idea of the Chosen One. It’s just that Anakin is close enough to the Emperor in the end to actually do it and the Emperor can’t see this selfless action. All these things that I’m saying about Anakin and Luke are more close to Obi-Wan and how things go with Maul. They are kind of different types of brothers, Obi-Wan and Maul – unfortunate brothers in a way. That theme of brotherhood is there with Maul in that he had a brother, we know. I think it’s more appropriate to end things that way with Obi-Wan and really get a glimpse of who Obi-Wan Kenobi is as a person, especially at that point in time in the desert. Plus, I love shooting stuff out there. It lets you be very visually striking.”

    Let me know howwhat you feel about Filoni’s thoughts on this quote and if you think he’s telling the truth.

    • lazypadawan Says:

      Somebody else forwarded to me that interview. Very interesting.

      • Bayonne VeterinaryMedical Says:

        Agreed.

      • Bayonne VeterinaryMedical Says:

        Also, LP, I’m sure this wasn’t done without thought, especially given Filoni was heavily involved with this episode. Dave Filoni did write and direct “Twin Suns”, so I trust him that he had a reason for putting that line in there, especially since he told the Forcecast back at WonderCon in 2014 that the Chosen One prophecy is more complex than we believe regarding the Skywalker family and what Kenobi believes, being that he and George both wanted to expand on the Chosen One stuff in Clone Wars before it’s premature ending and that it was more than just ”one”. He talks about it here from 51:19 to 55:26 in Forcecast Epsiode #300, if you want to listen to it that is: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/forcecast-podcast-star-wars-news-talk-interviews-and-more/id422924399?mt=2&i=306575841. I’m sure youre interested to hear more, so, if Filoni wanted to put that out there since 2014 when Clone Wars ended with the Yoda arc, I trust this a Filoni decision and not a “Disney screwing up Star Wars canon” machination.

      • Bayonne VeterinaryMedical Says:

        But, LP, if u’d prefer not spending 4 minutes listening to Filoni back in 2014 talkin 2 the Forcecast, I’ll just give you what he said in transcript/quote and I’ll leave it up 2 u 2 figure out what he means when he tells The Forcecast’s Justin Bolger what he believes of the Chosen One:

        Justin Bolger of Forcecast: So, quick question. This one is more personal to me.

        Dave Filoni: Ok. Whatever you need.

        Justin Bolger: I’m curious. Um, in the Yoda arc [of Clone Wars], one of the Force Priestesses says to him that “your destiny will be to choose one who will bring balance to the Force”. In Episode III, Yoda quotes that the Prophecy of the Chosen One may have been misread. Is Luke Skywalker the Chosen One?

        Dave Filoni: [laughs] Well, boy, I’m definitely not gonna answer that one way or the other. It’s always best to interpret things for yourself. But, I had several discussions about the Chosen One over the years and Rob Coleman and I had talked about it when Rob was on the show [Clone Wars] and thought, you know, “who is the Chosen One” and on some level, I wish we had gotten what the Prophecy was that they’re all reading. And I never even got that from George when we were doing Mortis, though. Mortis is definitely tied to the idea of the Prophecy very directly. So, the Father [of Mortis] believed that Anakin was the one prophecized. Now, I think Yoda has quite a revelation. One of the points in the Yoda arc was to show in the beginning that the he is the Yoda of the Prequel era. And, by the end, you could see the seeds that become the Yoda that you know in the Original Trilogy where he’s a bit more, I think, wise in a different way where he’s like “Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack”. And, you know, I think what you see is a shift in what his belief of what it means to be a Jedi for Yoda, and I think that’s probably why you see a shift in his belief in the Prophecy’s intention. Now, I think you could read said prophecy and believe Luke is the Chosen One, but I think at the end of the day, if you want to spilt hairs, it’s still Anakin that has to do the deed and cast the Emperor into the abyss. It was only Anakin who could really do that. BUT, if I’m to give you a third option, in my way of not answering, it’s really, to me, the combination of father and son. It’s the love between them, the selfless act by both people on Luke’s side to say [to the Emperor] “I love my father more than anything else. No matter what you do, you can’t destroy that. And, if you can’t destroy that, you cannot win, even if you kill me.” And, it’s Anakin’s awakening in that moment to realize that he loves his son more than anything else. Despite the evil deeds he’s done, he can still redeem himself. So, it’s hat combined effort, that connection. I think the connection is as important as anything. So, perhaps the misreading isn’t about one person. It’s that the misread is that they need to know its about a bond between people, between all people, to be selfless and that bind is signified in the bond between father and son, because it’s something the Emperor cannot read. He doesn’t understand what love is. He doesn’t understand the selfless act and he never sees it coming. You see, if you put all your hope in one person, you’ll be disappointed, as the Jedi, frankly, were in Anakin. Right? If you put all your hope in Luke, you’d be disappointed. Luke can’t destroy the Emperor on his own. He would die if Anakin doesn’t decide to redeem himself. To save his son. So, perhaps that’s the greatest truth about the Prophecy of the Chosen One is that it’s so easy, in our nature, to get hung up on the word “One” when it really should be that the Chosen One is more of an ideal to be ultimately selfless, which is how the Jedi should’ve acted and they would’ve nerve lost the Clone Wars, frankly. So, there, that’s a large answer, but, hopefully, worthwhile for you, I think.

        Sooo, what do u think, Lazy Padawan? Is this explanation from Filoni back in 2014 enough to make u understand why he’d put that line where Maul & Obi-Wan talk about Luke being the Chosen One in the Rebels episode, “Twin Suns”? Or would u require more evidence to show that that line in the Rebels episode is not as alarming as you fear it is? Hit me up when u can. Thanks. MTFBWU.

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