Ask SWPAS: Your Questions, My Answers II

From evangelian007:

Hey Lazy!
I got a question regarding Clone Wars: How much did the episodes cost to make? Because Lucas and Filoni never said how they much cost. Was it as expensive as the Young Indiana Jones serial/tv show? Or was it less?
It something that I always felt curious ever since the show aired.

I have no idea how much each episode cost. Someone on one of my recent posts mentioned that it was an expensive show to make and that’s why Disney cancelled it. I do not know if the show’s budget was a factor or not. However, I remember hearing Dave Filoni on a podcast prior to Clone Wars’s cancelation that the cost per episode was so low, if they had the kind of budget used on a Pixar or DreamWorks animated film, Filoni wouldn’t know what to do with the leftover money. He joked that he’d have to buy everyone rocket packs or something. Young Indiana Jones was an expensive show to make, which is why ABC axed it lickety split.

What do you think of Raikoh-illust’s star wars fan art? He’s someone who makes a lot (and I mean a lot) of Star Wars fan art.
Mostly it’s of Ahsoka which makes me happy because at least she’s getting respect and appreciation. He even drew her as a pony from the Friendship is Magic show. The reason why I’m asking is that he made a short fan comic named Barriss’s story that’s about her finding redemption. Even though it was fan made it was very well done. Maybe you could give him a shout out to him or his fan comic. Most of his SW fan art is positive and constructive.

I am not familiar with this artist but I’m sure s/he appreciates the plug!

From Andrew B:

Another question I have is why were the Star Wars films (especially the prequels) snubbed at the Academy Awards? We’ll start with episode I. Nominated for 3 (best VE, sound mixing, sound editing) losing ALL 3 to the Matrix. Not sure how fair that is, but whatever. I think that all 3 prequels deserved nominations for best original score (John Williams is perfection) and best costume design for Trisha Biggar, who costumed the galaxy flawlessly. And the only one that didn’t receive a nomination for best visual effects was ROTS! That makes ZERO sense! And finally, while I thought the acting was magnificent from all people, I thought Ian McDiarmid deserved a nomination for best supporting actor for his flawless work in episode III. Just my thoughts. What is your take on how the oscars forgot the prequels?

Part of it is because Fox/Lucasfilm never did a serious campaign for the films, part of it is because of backlash against the prequels/Lucas, and part of it is because the Academy had moved on from Star Wars the way it has recently moved on from Peter Jackson’s Middle Earth flicks. The LOTR movies were showered with nominations and awards, but the two Hobbit films have been largely ignored. ANH won a respectable 9 Oscars (though lost all of the big categories) while TESB and ROTJ won maybe one each. I don’t expect anything different for Episode VII no matter how much money it makes or how well it is received.

From Prince Of Naboo:

My question to SWPAS: I’ve only discovered Star Wars in 2006, so I completely missed the original releases of the films and what was going on. I’ve always wondered how “fandom” has changed over the years?
When the respective movies came out: Were there more people (I mean fans, specifically) who loved them or who hated them? Was it balanced?
Is it worse nowadays than when the movies came out? What was the situation overall?

I’d appreciate it a lot if you could just give a short overview of the “evolution of fandom and the reception of the films when they were originally released among SW fans”. This is especially directed at the Prequel films, but I’m also interested in fan’s reactions to the Ep. V and VI when they were released as well (I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember?). Thank you in advance.

Oh, I was old enough to remember! I’ll try to keep this as brief as possible because I could write a book on the topic. My personal experience was on the playground, not as part of a fandom per se, since I was a kid in those days. I’d say the overall reaction to TESB and ROTJ was positive (the reaction to ANH was in a class by itself), though I was in my early teens when ROTJ came out and was a little bit more aware there were a few negative reviews. I attributed that to jealousy and the critics being tired of the movies. I was shocked to find out later that *gasp* there were people out there who didn’t like Star Wars. It seemed like over time it became fashionable to love TESB and to bash ROTJ. I don’t know why. The only window I had into the thoughts of adult fans at the time the movies came out was by reading old fanzines from the ’80s. Again, most fans were positive about the movies but I recall the editors of one zine who absolutely hated TESB and left fandom shortly afterward, and another crew of “hate girls” who hated ROTJ because it didn’t end the way they wanted.

The biggest difference though between then and the late ’90s-00s was that the prequels came out in a world of the internet and 24/7 media. I don’t know how Eps V-VI would have fared had the internet existed then, probably not as well as they did in an era without the internet.

Got any questions? Comment or send ’em to SWPASadmin@gmail.com! When I get another batch, I’ll make another post!

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23 Responses to “Ask SWPAS: Your Questions, My Answers II”

  1. Adam D. Bram (The Nilbog) Says:

    I literally, not five minutes ago, left one on the last questions post. Guess my timing’s off.

  2. peacetrainjedi Says:

    This is kind of an open two-parter, a bit out of left field and perhaps a bit less relevant then previous questions, but…If you (somehow) found yourself in the Star Wars galaxy, say shortly before the events of Episode I, where would you most want to go, and what would you do when you got there? Are there any famous residents of that galaxy far, far away you’d want to meet (and possibly give a few pointers)?

    The second part is more of a serious question. One of the criticisms of the PT I could never understand was that they had “unrelatable” and unsympathetic characters. I love the 6 films and the storyline they weave, but (in an in-universe context), I often long for the Jedi Order and the Old Republic to endure despite already knowing they’re doomed. When you rewatch the films, are there moments when you long for a different outcome (even though you know how every scene turns out)?

    And on a much belated note to one of your ‘great scenes’ posts, I stumbled across this nice little youtube vid that syncs up the sound of seismic charges with a groovy tune and is chalk full of Star Wars nostalgia (and actually got me pumped for Episode VII and that Star Wars will soon be back on the big screen). 🙂

  3. obi-rob-kenobi Says:

    I got a question:

    What do you think about the evolution of the hateboy problem on the jedi council forms over on theforce.net?

    As someone who was on there defending SW from petty, insecure, pretentious troll hateboys since 2001 I must say it has only gotten much worse. That was actually the site that taught me there was even a such thing as Jar-jar hate in the year 2001 when I got my first computer/internet connection.

    I remember there were WARS on that site for years about weather there should just simply be a “No bashing Lucas or his films” rule that would have fixed everything but then the rule became a total BULLS**T rule called “films not fans” which basically allows the hateboys to bash and troll as much as they want but you cant say anything about it because then that would be “bashing a fan” when these people are anything but fans.

    In my eyes thats when that site defeated itself and allowed the place to become the armpit of the internet when it comes to any mention of SW.

    Last question:

    Why cant real fans like the good people around here just get together and BUY that site from whoever the hell runs it now and just finally instate the “No bashing allowed” rule and permanently Ban all the hateboys in one day? Seriously? Why hasn’t this happened yet? How do you think it could happen?

    They dont even deserve their web address anymore as far as im concerned. They simply AREN’T even SW fans at this point. Why cant Disney just start suing and/or shutting these people down already?

    • Morgan Cherney Says:

      I’m going to stop you there, obi-rob, and say that, while i’m a prequel supporter, a saga supporter, a lucas supporter, and a Hateboy hater, this “films not fans” thing is actually a fair rule. Why? Because there is a thing called Freedom of Speech. That, and that everyone is entitled to an opinion. On messaged boards such as the Jedi Council Forums, your are GOING to have people with different opinions, NOTHING is going to stop that. Basically what you’re saying you desire is “they should ban everyone who has a different opinion from me”, which is unfair. Personally i think the board makes a good compromised by having a Prequel section and an Original Trilogy section, that can help divide between differing opinions (more often than not). I’ll say this about Freedom of Speech, which is while you are entitled to voice your opinions and speak how you wish, it doesn’t mean you should be an asshole about it. And Hateboys CAN be pretty big assholes. And ANewHope from ACertainPointOfView’s (whatever happened to him anyway? he hasn’t updated since November 2012 O_O) original definition of “Hateboy” are essentially fun police who try to ruin prequel fans good time and feel that decisions of Star Wars are somehow entitled to them. Not a dime a dozen person who just happens to not like the prequels. And yea, you get that kind of behavior on the Boards…you get that kind of opinion ANYWHERE. But it would be VERY unprofessional of TFN to just BAN people for having an opinion. If they’re trolls, intentionally starting flame wars, saying things about your mama, that’s one thing. But not movie opinions.

      And incidentally, i’ve listened to a few episodes of TFN’s podcast Forcecast recently, and no, they don’t deserve to have their address taken away, they clearly ARE Star Wars fans, in the eps i’ve heard i’ve rarely if ever heard ANY kind of prequel or Lucas bashing.

      • obi-rob-kenobi Says:

        I have no problem with things like the forcecast, I wasn’t talking about them (I love the forcecast usually) Im talking about the hateboys and how one day the people in charge of that site decided to give them free rain to police and practically take over and ruin the message boards on that site.

        They have turned the (once great) message boards into nothing but an echo chamber and a circle jerk of hateboy brain washers.

        And no that rule has nothing to do with “freedom of speech”. Its the Star Wars message boards. For the Star Wars fans. Not for the wanna be fans (hateboys) which is secretly all they ever really were (just jealous of us and our history).

        You should be banned if you repeatedly bash the films. No different from the basic “no bashing” rule that we have here. thats the only reason we are even safe and quiet to talk with each other right now or else it would be like a youtube comment section here with nothing but hate and war. It would be a war zone. Like the hateboys turned almost everywhere else into. Well guess what? I can hang around here and talk about fan history and LFL and our 90’s and our early 2000’s without loudmouth, ignorant trolls attacking everything and the only reason I can do that now is because they cant come in here because they will get kicked out for being what they are which is a star wars hater. A person who spends every day at war with SW and with George Lucas and with LFL.

        You either like GL, LFL and The Star Wars Saga that you can go and buy from over the counter at any wallmart or best buy, you either like these things and are a fan of them or you dont like them, wish they were different and go to war with them every day and try to brainwash people into boycotting all these things you claim to be a fan of.

        Well I like GL,LFL and The Star Wars Saga. Im a fan of these 3 things and so I want a safe place to be able to go and discuss these things without being attacked, trolled, socially shamed and then stalked and harassed.

        And that is why it IS important to have one simple little rule on the SW website that says “Please no SW bashing”.

        I really think the SW fanbase (the TRUE fanbase) is a LOT smaller than people think and I think it should be just for us. Wake up. None of these people actually like the SW film Saga or LFL or George Lucas. They like playing video games and they like deviant art and forced memes and fan-edits and hateboy “us against Lucas” mentality. Thats what they like.

        They dont like SW. They like 20 something year old VHS tapes of what George Lucas’s Saga ISN’T. They like bootleg, practically illegal, pirated copys of whatever Lucas says he doesn’t consider cannon. Whatever it is he doesn’t want or doesn’t like they like. So they certainly dont like The Star Wars Saga. They have been at war with the SW Saga for years now. So screw them. We really need to find a way to get rid of these people. LFL/Disney needs to market to different people or start suing or something.

        I just dont want them to be able to go see these movies anymore. They shouldn’t be allowed into the dam movie theater when they come out in 3D or whatever. They truly should not be. They should be told off and asked to leave at the front counter. I know thats impossible but whats right is right.

        I wish I could buy that website and keep simply just keep everything the same except for banning the shit out of all the hateboys on the site and immediately instate the strict air tight “No bashing of the 6 Films, LFL or George Lucas Allowed!” Rule.

        Thats what needs to be done over there. I have been saying it since 2001 and I will say it until I die because Im a fan of LFL, Star Wars and George Lucas.

        Its the cold hard truth. I know. I lived it.

      • Morgan Cherney Says:

        i obviously haven’t frequented the boards as much as you have, but from what i have, i’ve seen little of what you’re talking about. The point I’M trying to get across, though, is that it’s a message board. There ARE going to be conflicting opinions, and once in a while, there will be bashing, we can’t escape that. I don’t like it any more than you do. But i’m sorry, banning people for not liking a set of films in a franchise is overkill and petty. Behavior that would be more in line for banning would be if someone came along and said, and pardon my language, this is just and example, “you prequel fans are a bunch of f*cking idiots. The prequels are a bunch of garbage, and anyone who disagrees with me is is wrong and a f*cking retard with down syndrome who’s incapable of perceiving how bad it is”, and then if anyone talks back, he/she just retaliates with “f*ck you, f*cking moron, you suck, f*ck f*ck,”, THAT’S cause for banning. Because it’s trolling and disrespectful to the other people on the board. If a person says that they didn’t like the prequels, and explains their reasoning for why, that’s NOT cause for banning, that’s simply sharing their opinion, which is what message boards are FOR. Personally i wish those people would stick to originaltrilogy.com, but Jedi Council is designed for all fans to express how they feel. If they wish to express certain disdain for aspects of the franchise, they’re entitled to do so. The line to be drawn is for the MANNER they choose to do so, not simply for voicing their opinion in the first place. Trust me, i’ve managed a forum in the past, and had to do my share of bans for misconduct. But i’d never ban anyone simply for disagreeing with me.

      • lazypadawan Says:

        The biggest mistake SW fandom ever made was to validate bashing as just another opinion. It became the thing that ate discussion about Star Wars. I literally cannot participate in any broad-appeal Star Wars site anymore because it’s all about hating most of the existing saga. So-called fans lack the maturity to respect other people’s opinions and feelings.

        Of course it’s up to every site to determine what it wants and I can’t determine that for them.

  4. Daniel Xie Says:

    Do you think that a lot of websites have given special privilage to hateboys to compare the PT to other movies(often unfavorably). A lot of people call the Prequels Michael Bay-level crap. however when I pointed out how stuff like Twilight may be worse, I’m not allowed to compare the prequels to Twilight or 50 shades of Grey. So they can say that prequels are just as bad as movie x but why can’t I ay movie X is worse than the PT?

    BTW Why the hell are the PT compared to Michael Bay transformers? Transformers IMO are actually bad movies, don’t hold a candle to PT.

  5. Tarrlok Says:

    1. Do you believe the broadly good reputation which TCW currently has will last? It’s generally seen as a good TV show, one which even many people who hated the PT like. However, AOTC and ROTS are both known to have received critical acclaim back in the early 2000s. I recall that they were each extolled as one the best SW films, and in both cases they were seen by some as a “return to form” by those who didn’t like the preceding films. Then they came to be seen by a very vocal group of commentators as part of the PT mass which they dislike in its totality. Could the same happen to TCW?

    I myself have seen a number of SWEU fans, outraged at TCW’s overriding of lower-level canon, rejoice at TCW’s cancellation. In addition, TCW has inevitably failed to win over every person who dislikes the PT or Lucas himself, being as it is a Lucas-masterminded project focusing on the PT’s characters in a prequel-era setting with all that it entails. As before, could a vocal group of passionate anti-fans do serious damage to TCW’s reputation, either specifically or as part of the prequel and SW animation groupings, when the rest of the world has moved onto an attitude of non-antagonistic disinterest?

    Alternatively, do you think the fact that TCW won an Emmy for its high standards will help to cement its good reputation in the coming years? Do TV shows, due to their lower profile and more devoted audiences, tend to have more stable reputations than blockbuster films, even posthumously?

    2. How well regarded do you honestly think TPM, AOTC and ROTS will be in future decades?

    3. Beyond the crude “Jar Jar Binks in carbonite” sort, what things could Episode VII and the Sequel Trilogy do story- or design-wise that you would perceive as a jab at the PT?

    • Daniel Xie Says:

      I think TCW will have a pretty good reputation, but unfortunately, not the way Saga fans want it to be. The TCW-specific hateboys are a very vocal minority because their own hate for the show is based on the EU which people only give lip service to. However the good reputation I fear will not be because it added to the Prequels, but because it has been USED as an argument AGAINST the prequels.

      • Daniel Xie Says:

        Basically it will be used against us. I would not be suprised if in the future haters invoke TCW, instead of Plinkett to justify their claim of why PT sucks or whatever

      • lazypadawan Says:

        I’ve seen a few people say that CW was better or something, though the show has no context at all without the films.

  6. Daniel Xie Says:

    Also is it likely the reason that hateboys claim that GL dosen’t own Star Wars is because of the EU? This is the idea that Star Wars has outgrown GL and thus he shouldn’t tamper with it.

    Through a lot of hateboys like to hold up TCW as a “example” of how SW can do better, there are TCW hateboys as well that hate it because of how it has “shat” upon EU. However the Mandalorian retcon weren’t THAT bad and made the deaths of Gallia and Piell more memorable than less had it been consigned to a comic or obscure novel.

    Honestly why does the prequel storyline get a lot of flak of making no sense when a lot of the Post-ROTJ EU dosen’t get that much flak despite it being filled with bad and 2D characters. If it wasn’t written by Timothy Zahn, Matthew Stover or is a Kyle Katarn game, then I probably don’t like it but I dont see why all the crap in NJO and Legacy era is excused.

    • Tarrlok Says:

      “Honestly why does the prequel storyline get a lot of flak of making no sense when a lot of the Post-ROTJ EU dosen’t get that much flak despite it being filled with bad and 2D characters?”

      Oh, I can think of a few reasons why. One of them would be the strange double standard to which Lucas is often held relative to others, including those who have also worked with the SW setting. I wouldn’t hold the SWPT anti-fandom in such low esteem if it wasn’t propped up by post hoc rationalisations of gut negative reactions. The brazenly shallow attempts to cover up rose/jade-tinted nostalgia and hype burnout with appeals to supposedly sound (read: dull, rehashed) storytelling technique is cringe-inducing.

      I’ve seen so many sincere attempts to “rewrite” the PT that fall flat. IIRC, someone even ripped Mike Stoklasa’s attempted TPM rewrite to shreds. A common trend I’ve seen is for “rewriters” to rip out most of the surprisingly nuanced political aspects of the PT – the GAR, the CIS and all that – in favour of black-and-white morality. They sometimes push Anakin to either the saintly or demonic extreme, arguing that Lucas erroneously did the opposite. The thing is, had Lucas produced anything on the same level as most of these PT rewrites, he’d have faced even more outrage than what he got, and rightly so. The actual PT’s story had and continues to have real appeal among fans and general audiences. However, the PT’s anti-fans are quite vocal that the PT needed a tonne more X and a load more Y.

      Demands are often contradictory, and there’s even overlap when they’re from the same anti-fan. Spray an array of “alternate” story ideas for the PT at a wall in front of them and you’ll hear a chorus proclaiming that they’re all better than what we got. It’s all reactionary and incoherent. Hence why even the worst of the SWEU gets a relative pass from all but the harshest SWEU critics and everything Lucas does is looked at through an electron microscope.

      Regarding TCW and the PT’s anti-fans, I admit to not personally seeing so much adoration for TCW from them due to the circles I’ve tended to travel in, but I do know it exists. What I have seen in the circles of hardcore SW (EU) fandom is a lot of negative contrasting of TCW against the Clone Wars microseries directed by Genndy Tartakovsky and released between 2003 and 2005. That cartoon had very little direct input from Lucas and was continually held up as an example of what the PT should have been. I loved the microseries as a complement to the films, but many of its boosters saw it differently to myself. Lucas’ influence over (2008-2013) TCW was often seen as wholly/primarily negative, with Filoni merely being seen as a facilitator. To them, Lucas was associated intimately with everything they disliked about TCW, from its “prequelisms” to its overriding of C-canon material. To them, the microseries remains TCW’s superior because of its relative lack of Lucas.

      Indeed, Lucas was very much involved in TCW from start to finish, even if the PT-bashers don’t care much to know this. The original concept of TCW that was pitched was much more like ‘Rebels’, until Lucas stepped in and turned TCW into a rather more ambitious ‘Star Wars Episode 2.5′, focusing on Anakin Skywalker’s relationship with his young apprentice, Obi-Wan, Padme and the stories of various associated characters. Especially as the show went on, Lucas was the source for many if not most of the stories for the episodes/arcs, many of which became ever more steeped in the themes and plots of the PT. Filoni once likened Lucasfilm Animation’s hierarchy to the Galactic Empire, with himself in the Vader position and Lucas as Sidious. Lucas was the executive producer, and he collected the show’s Emmy award in 2013. Even if other writers and directors brought TCW to life, he was the mastermind of the show from start to finish.

      So yeah, some PT-bashers might see the TCW production method as inherently different from that of the PT, but the fact is that the bloke who they see as having lost his touch in 1981 was probably as engaged in TCW’s development as Gene Roddenberry was in Star Trek: TNG or even TOS. Incidentally, TNG’s generally better received later seasons correspond with Roddenberry’s reduced role in its production, TCW’s similarly better received later seasons correspond with Lucas’ increased involvement. If some of the PT’s anti-fans have chosen TCW as their champion, they’ve chosen an odd one. Indeed, it’s as LP said in the first Q&A response.

      • Tarrlok Says:

        As an example of the reactionary, “accept-anything-as-long-as-it’s-not-the-actual-prequels” tendency, here is a suggestion that Lucas should have stuck with the zygotic form of the PT’s story he had in the early 1980s.

        http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/notyetamovie/news/?a=80126

        Fortunately he didn’t cease refining the story, because the original plan that the anti-fans think he should have stuck with would have looked something like this:

      • lazypadawan Says:

        Ugh, most of those comments remind me of why I’ve come to dislike “geeks” so much.

      • Daniel Xie Says:

        Same with ESB in what Hateboys choose to champion, they often claim GL had “minmal” involvement in CW, TCW and TESB if they admit his involvement, giving all the credit to someone like Filoni or Kurtz but overlook the impact of GL’s influence in these films.

      • lazypadawan Says:

        Those are good points, at least with the people who disliked the prequels but lurved the expanded universe. (Granted, Chewbacca’s death in “Vector Prime” drew probably more nerd rage than the prequel films themselves). I’d add to that the books were mostly military sci-fi, heavy on action, and focused on characters from the OT. People started complaining more about the books when they became darker and more “prequel-esque” though IMO they weren’t.

  7. M. Marshall Says:

    Another reason the Star Wars films were snubbed at the oscars is because the Oscars have a prejudice against sci-fi. No sci-fi film has ever won for best picture and no actor has ever won an oscar for a genre role, yet I was shocked when I found out that an epic fantasy film did win for best picture. It also was a bit of a surprise when Heath Ledger won Best Supporting Actor posthumously for “The Dark Knight” even though it’s debatable whether that film counts as sci-fi or not.

    • timblank50 Says:

      I do think that is part of it, especially when you consider that 2001: A Space Odyssey was not even nominated for a Best Picture Oscar, hell, even Wall-E which so many people thought was the best movie of that year didn’t even get nominated. I would not consider “The Dark Knight” as a Sci-Fi film myself. You could stretch and MAYBE say its Hard Sci-Fi, but I don’t think it would even stand up to that because much of the technology used in that movie is used now. As of now, I do think that eventually a sci-fi film will finally get its due at the Academy, hopefully in most of our lifetimes. They’re going to need new people to vote for the best movies and if another sci-fi movie comes around, whether its Star Wars or another series, that could light the world on fire and get attention for the academy, a newer generation of voters could put a movie like that over the top.

      • lazypadawan Says:

        I don’t view “The Dark Knight” as sci-fi; it’s a superhero movie. Maybe the Academy has a prejudice against science fiction-y stuff. At least “Gravity” got nominated (though I think “12 Years A Slave” is going to win).

  8. evangelian007 Says:

    Hey Lazy!
    Thank you for answering my question(s).
    Sorry for asking 2 of them. I thought that you ignored the 1st one because it might have been a bit complex. So i thought of making another simpler(the one about TCW budget).
    But still thank you. At least you satisfied my curiosity with your info.

    I find it really weird that Disney cancels a show like TCW which wasn’t very expensive to produce and it managed to go above and beyond Pixar quality yet they spend millions of dollars in advertisement in the mediocre Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D show.

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